no one knows what they’re doing (and that’s okay) … with matt tanner
In the inaugural episode of Trees for the Forest, CEO and co-founder of Same Page HR, Matt Tanner talks about his return to fictional storytelling through a revived appreciation for film, TV, and books. We explore how art invites us to travel time and perspectives seamlessly, and how building empathy makes you a more balanced, reasonable, and effective leader.
Listen here or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can find more from Matt on LinkedIn and tap into his amazing team of HR experts at samepagehr.com.
Transcript
Rachel Nelms: Welcome. My name is Rachel Nelms. For over 15 years, I've been working with executives and their teams across industries and continents Over the years, the leaders I work with have found clarity and courage when they reconnected themselves with an idea. an experience deeper than their business goals and bigger than their professional position. Those ideas and experiences are what I'm here to explore in Trees for the Forest. I spend time and conversation with leaders learning about that unique experience and inspiration that shapes who they are as humans and in time informs how they show up as leaders. you so much for joining us for this meaningful conversation. Today's guest has been a dear friend of mine and thought partner for over 10 years. He's wicked funny, often smart, deeply curious,
and somehow manages to take exactly nothing too seriously. He models skepticism without cynicism, reason without disengagement, and humor, without silliness.
He's the kind of thinker who pushes for a new perspective and finds the basics refreshing by trade. He's an entrepreneur, a and a business leader, and an HR expert who's led HR work that makes a difference at MailChimp.
Full story, king of Pops and his own company, same page hr. I've had the honor of working alongside Matt and getting to know how his brain works, which
makes me especially excited about our conversation today. I expect it will be insightful, unexpected, and almost definitely fun. Welcome, Matt.
Matt Tanner: Hey, thanks for having me. That's a high bar to meet that intro. Hopefully I can do it.
Rachel Nelms: Uh, just a description, not a bar. So I'm excited for everyone to hear from you today. so I am not going to have you kind of give your life story. I just wanna start somewhere near the beginning with one question. what is an experience that you had as a kid that suddenly changed how you understand the world?
Matt Tanner: Man, right. To the deep stuff. one of the memories I have was in, uh, kindergarten, uh, mobile, Alabama. And I remember my parents we need to talk about something and pulling me aside. And, uh, I, I got scared. I didn't know. What was coming and my dad said, uh, we're moving. We're gonna, we're gonna move a few states to away for his job. I just vividly remember thinking. you just have to do that because, uh, the company told you that. And I don't, I don't know the, I still don't know the full reason behind it. It might've been a great promotion. You might've got a totally new company.
I don't really remember. But you know, when you're in kindergarten, you just think like, this is my life. This is where I will live for the next a hundred years. And um, that was the first moment that it just struck me like, oh man, my dad is beholden to this, uh, other company. And then that led into the next. 20 years of his life where he just commuted an hour every day. And, uh, I just vividly remember that moment sitting on a carport, being like, we gotta upload an uh, uh, you know, pick up everything and just move because of this job of his. So that, um, that was formative.
Rachel Nelms: It's interesting, so it sounds like. This kind of realization that he does, he doesn't have absolute agency. I mean, a five-year-old doesn't know what agency is, but he doesn't have absolute agency. He has to kind of answer to someone.
Matt Tanner: Yeah, and I may be that memory because of the topic of our conversation today, but I just remember, um, how jarring that was. And it was fine. It was a great move. Uh, it wasn't scarring or anything, but, um, that memory lodged, uh, for sure.
Rachel Nelms: Hmm. Thank you. For sharing. So before we kind of dive into what we talked about exploring today, I would love to know a bit about, um, the place that reading and movies have in your life and how they got to come, came to be in that place.
Matt Tanner: You know, the meme where it's like, um, like a bell curve and it'll have like, the genius or the caveman and then like, at the end it's a genius. It's like, uh, apple notes and in the middle will be like, Asana and all these things. In the end is like Apple Notes. What is that?
There's a name for that meme. Uh, which I, I should probably know, but, um, that's how I feel about movies. Like when I was in books, like when I was, um, in, in high school, I would just live at Blockbuster and bring home. had a little TV in my room and look at VCR R and just watch movies. I didn't read any nonfiction how to, uh, books or self-help. was all just like any movie I could get my hands on. Um, and then as I got my first job, I think I just thought, oh, now I gotta be a professional. And I got deep into, uh, every piece of self-help, every podcast, like just, and then older I get, I've now. Kind of return to, uh, and, and fiction books and novels on my shelf back here. You can kind of see the evolution, like it was just full of every, uh, I don't wanna name any names, but just every, um, self-help book you could think of. And then slowly but surely physical Blu-rays and four Ks and fiction is taking over like a cube, cube by cube. And so it's always been there. I just think I it. a long time and, um, got just eventually very jaded with all the self-help books that could probably be a PDF or an email. It's, it's just something I remember in high school in Blockbuster, uh, seeing like the a FI 100 poster when they did that, like the hundred greatest films ever. And I was like, oh, I'll just go through those.
And I went through most of those. Um, I got my wisdom teeth out. I remember having a stack, I rented like 20 movies and just laid in bed and watched those and, um, have returned to that. I'm watching a lot of movies these days,
Rachel Nelms: It's so interesting because you know, self-help books promise to help you find a way towards deeper meaning. And it sounds like you found it kind of to be a, you found it to be a dead end and now you've returned to wtories.
Matt Tanner: Yeah.
Rachel Nelms: And so I'm curious how in this new kind of romance and relationship you're having with movies in a film, how they are giving you a deeper meaning and understanding of your own lived experience right now.
Matt Tanner: Yeah, I mean sometimes it's just obvious and straightforward. I love the genre of movie that I would call, like people sitting in a room talking like competently, like Moneyball or, um, I. call. They, they weren't competent and then they kind of were at the end. Uh, margin call I believe is better than the big short for the record. But like, I love those kind of movies and you're just like, oh, I can transfer. Like social network, you can transfer that. Like, oh, that's, that's about, uh, obsession at what cost or something.
Some of those are like very obvious. Um, but others I think just kind of seep in a way that is so much more effective than reading. Uh, some, here's a 10 step, uh. Thing to be a great leader, here's an acronym. I mean, some of that stuff is helpful, but, um, I think the ones that, um, uh, show me some sort of lived experience or, and, and to be clear, like to seek out a movie, I need it to have like, uh, be entertaining and have great cinematography, good actors, like I love. No country for old men, uh, because it's beautiful. I love the Cohen Brothers. I mean, incredible cast, great movie, entertaining story. But behind all that is this, um, thing where Tommy Lee Jones is wrestling with like, man, the world might just be chaos. And so that I don't leave that. Movie and write down in a journal, the world is chaos.
What am I gonna do about this? But, uh, I think just over time, the more those movies just get in your head and you kind of, uh, over time becomes something that is to me, way more meaningful and lodged in there deeper if I'd just read a substack about that or something. and I love how this changes too. Uh, I don't know when it came out. Lost in translation was one of my favorite movies when it came out, maybe 2 98 or 2000, like right early in my, I think I was in college. And, um, I really related to this Scarlet Johansen character. It was like this. what am I gonna do with my life? I don't understand. And I re-watched it recently, still love it. And I was like, oh, I'm, I relate more to the Bill Murray character. Not, I mean, he's got some deeper things going on, but it's like back at your life. And so I think that's really fun too. Like you just don't even know what's gonna lodge in your head.
Rachel Nelms: When you watched it recently, did you remember what it felt like to relate to this girl Johansen character?
Matt Tanner: Yeah, I went in, I went into it, you know how, you know in your head, like I've always said, that's one of my top five movies. And it just was a thing I said and believe, but I couldn't really remember why I hadn't seen it in a decade. And so I went in like, I love, I know I love this movie. Uh, I love the score and the cinematography. It's just a great, it's a great movie. But, um, in my mind I'm thinking, I don't even think about the Bill Murray character. I mean, I know he's funny and I love him, but thinking, yeah, I remember loving this movie. Um. as I'm watching the Scarlet Drew Hansen character, who is, uh, don't know if it's depressed or just wrestling with what she's gonna do with her life, I am looking at her now with like, you were so lucky.
Like, you're so young. You have, uh, so much in front of you. It doesn't matter. Nothing, none of this matters. Like, you're gonna be great. Uh, and so I didn't, I didn't think of myself as wrong for having that opinion before, but it is just, um, it, it was such a. Odd feeling, watching that, being like, man, that was, I had nothing to worry about like that.
That part's gonna be fine. You're looking back, will be way harder.
Rachel Nelms: So interesting how, uh. Art like that can help us see ourselves and then create almost a documentary of our past, like a borrowed documentary. Um, and there are very right few, few other opportunities for us too, to see that kind of change and shift. Um, so clearly. Uh,
You know, you shared about Lost in Translation and how it kind of became, it's become a bookend for you with Scarlet Johansen. And then going back now you were identifying with Bill Murray. Um, I would love to explore one other kind of piece of storytelling book, movie TV show that's led to, uh, kind of a clarifying moment that that profoundly shifted how you move through the world.
Matt Tanner: Okay, might sound like a reach, uh, and maybe a little. You ho. Hopefully not. But, um, it, part of it was just the timing of when I saw, when I, uh, took in this piece of, uh, of culture. But, um, I lo I love the show lost and, um, you know, it had its detractors at the end, but I, I just will never forget this is right when I was. Early in my career and just thought it was jarring for me when I started work. ' cause I left college and was like, oh my God, work is just like going to like doing this job every day for the next. years because I'd watched my father do that, who never complained. But I, I'm in the middle of that kind of just, uh, twenties, uh, oh my God. And, um, I'll never forget this part of Lost where, if you're familiar with the show, um, I, I think you probably are. So, um, they're, they're, they're stranded on the island and they finally get off. And Jack the main character, one of the main characters, is like freaking out. Trying to get back, to the island.
And he, there's this like, it's like MeMed now. It's like he's yelling at Kate, I think. Like we have to go back and, um, a very specific thing. But I just remember having worked at a place, uh, and done some stuff in my career for five or six years and just spent the entire. Six years trying to find something better and get out of that Like just, oh, I can, I can't do this. Like, I hate it. um, and then, and then looking back on that six years, like, oh, that was, I, that was pretty good. Like I, I, I wish I had been back in that situation. It's similar to, um, how I feel about college. Like I was talking to my niece recently, who, who. Was graduating college and she was kind of rolling her eyes about this like AM class you had to go to.
And I, and I had, I signed up for all these 8:00 AM classes that I never went to. And now if you told me I could go listen to, uh, somebody talk about economics and I could like bring a coffee and sit there from eight to nine, like sign me up. So I, I think, um, also I just lost is awesome and I loved it. But, um, I that. Image of him not knowing how good he had something or, or think, you know, just trying desperately to get out. I guess the larger thing there would be like, live in the moment, but nothing that on the nose or a cliche, just, um, taking some time to appreciate what you have and what you're doing and being present.
Um, I, I don't know that that's like the theme of that show, but I do remember that moment.
Rachel Nelms: I love that. Um, so how have you brought that perspective into how you lead your business and shape your business?
Matt Tanner: I think a thing that I have gotten pretty good at, and it took a long time and I'm still working on it, is to, I. Kind of sit with discomfort or confusion or just being like, I, I don't know what I, I don't have an answer. I don't know what I'm doing. Nobody knows what I'm doing. No, nobody knows what they're doing.
And just be comfortable with that. And so, um, I think early on in my career, I, I wanted to have it all figured out, have a perfect job or, or role or get the next thing. And so running this business, I've just gotten very comfortable at not. Knowing how to do everything. And a, a question that I get a lot when I'm like interviewing somebody or, people, I was at a dinner last night and we were talking about with a couple of founders and we're talking about business and inevitably somebody asked me like, where do you want to take this?
Or What's the five year vision? Or whatever. um, I don't really know. Uh, great. I don't have great answers for that and I've gotten just comfortable with that. So, um, I think that's something that I've. Taken into, into this endeavor, like it. Um, I, I, not every day is great. I don't know how to solve everything.
I don't really know where it's going entirely, okay with that. I think.
Rachel Nelms: So thinking about, I'm thinking about Lost,
Matt Tanner: which
Rachel Nelms: I have a complicated relationship with. Um, but I remember so much of that show was about problem solving, problem identification. I mean, it makes it sound so. Boring and uninteresting, but they're constantly figuring out like, how do we survive? How do we get out of this group?
How do we, um, ultimately how do we get off the island? And then what is happening with these numbers, right? So there's just kind of
Matt Tanner: Yeah.
Rachel Nelms: lots of confusion and this just obsession, understandable. Um, to get to clarity and simplicity.
Matt Tanner: Yep.
Rachel Nelms: Or what's coming up for me as you're, as you're sharing is that, we do that in our own life.
We try to kind of rush to solve the problem. And we identify things as a problem as negative words We identify it as a problem. And that as a whole, I mean, that carries all kinds of risk and it carries shame, this kind of identification of a problem. And, It almost sounds like you're getting to the, you've gotten to the place where you're like, it's just an open question, and I can sit in that open question and it's okay. I don't have to rush to perfection right now
Matt Tanner: Yeah, I love this. I love things that are just like, who knows man? Like, I don't know if they ran outta time or there was an answer that somebody knows.
I think that's really cool and interesting. I by nature wanna solve things and figure them out, but I'm getting better and better at. enjoying not knowing. my, business partner business partner coined this term, or she didn't coin this term, but, this a lot and I've adopted it like, is this a problem to solve or just attention to manage or sit with? more often than not, it's just the tension to live with and, not. go insane trying to solve some of these things. that's how I feel. you name it, if I, watch any film that's just like tied up too neatly in a bow, I mean, you get, I think this is most people with, with a critical eye or that, that watch a lot of films or read books.
Like if it's tied up too neatly, it's really not that enjoyable. the mystery is kind of the fun part. is kind of the fun part. Now I'm like, sure where our next client's gonna come from or looking at it can be a little less fun in the moment, but I mean. It would be pretty boring if it was just always obvious. Um,
Rachel Nelms: How have you helped yourself get to the place where you can sit in those tensions? I mean, that's a really hard thing to do.
Matt Tanner: Well, part of it is me telling you I'm good at it. Uh, I'm not, I, I'm not, I'm not always great at it in the moment. Um, sometimes it's just like looking back on it and saying like, that wasn't so bad. Like, you're, you're better at this than you think. Uh, in the moment I'm, I'm a, a mess sometimes, but I think just reps, it's just pattern recognition and, and more reps.
Um. I think every month that goes by that the thing doesn't fall apart, you get a little more comfort. So I don't really have a better answer than just I, I'm certainly not wired that way by nature, but the more time that goes by, the more reps I get better at it or, or, or at least more comfortable with it, I don't know that I'm ever gonna be great at it.
Rachel Nelms: I, um, oftentimes I think about behavior change as like, moving a pawn on a chessboard you can be, you can, or a king, I guess you can only move one space at a time. And so we go from being in the behavior and being unaware of it. So we're kind of way out here. And then we incrementally, behavior change doesn't look like not being in the behavior.
It's not kind of on the other side of this. It looks like, I'm aware now. I'm aware sooner. sooner. oh, now it takes me less time after I've done it to realize I didn't want to do it.
Matt Tanner: Yeah,
Rachel Nelms: So before, maybe I'd never realized it. And then maybe a week later I realized it, and now you know, the next day I realize it.
And so you slowly build awareness until you realize it at the time. You can stop yourself in the moment and then maybe you can anticipate, and it was excruciating, that journey.
Matt Tanner: And it's, dependent on the area of life, you know? So it's like, running a business, like those things are getting to be easier in some aspects. And then, like my kids' ages are changing and I'm like, we're doing middle school. Like that's a new thing. So it's like part of it's me and where I am oriented, but then it's also just like the situation, all these new things and I'm like, oh, I'm bad at this again.
Let me try, let me. it's a new thing that I gotta get good at or, more comfortable with, but I love that analogy.
Rachel Nelms: Well, that's, so that's a great, um, kind of shift into what I was curious about next, which is what lessons you're learning right now and who or what are your teachers.
Matt Tanner: So some of these lessons I did learn, but like running a team, like I've learned these from the other side of it. But, um, running a team, running a business with, um, you know, th 40 team members, um, just something I've never done before and it's been. Eye-opening. There's parts of it that I knew how to do 'cause I knew what I liked and didn't like when I was on the other side of that. um, I'm learning so much from the team and what they want to hear and what they don't want to hear, what they care about, what they don't wanna care about. Um, some things that just like for example, um, I've learned that sharing things like your. Your scorecard, your metrics or your profit, like there's just a degree of that, that no one is gonna care about as much as me and nor should they, or, I mean, I dunno if they should or shouldn't, but it's just like an unfair expectation. something that's driving me crazy, uh, some little thing or some thing that's hurting a margin or helping a margin. Like they're just, is not a knock on them, like they have so many other priorities. So that's been, I think I should have known that, but,
Rachel Nelms: Yeah.
Matt Tanner: That's a lesson I've learned for sure.
Rachel Nelms: How are you learning that lesson?
Matt Tanner: I'll spend, um, all this time on, tweaking a scorecard and, and I'll know that I, like, we have this little metric that I knew was wrong and I was trying to figure out how to like, calculate it and I'm figured out and I share it. And it was like a collective shrug, like, all right, great.
Good job. Um, and, and I could be annoyed by that, I, I. I wasn't, 'cause I, I paused and was thinking, you know what? Like, yeah, they don't, they have other things, that is more, uh, that are more pressing for them. Um, this is my thing to own and care about. So that's an example. And then other things, like sometimes with communication, I'm learning, uh, we rolled out a. Um, like a profit share, uh, program for employees. And I spent so much time trying to get it right where it would be, and equitable and something they could like, actually impact and, and they would win when we win. And I rolled it out and I was expecting all these questions and it was kind of a. you so much. This is great. And that, and you know, it was very, uh, and I, they were very, um, grateful, had a few little questions, but I could have spent half the time stressing about it that I did. Um, but, but it dawned on me like, that's okay. Like, I don't need them about every little piece of this.
I, I probably over-engineered that one,
Rachel Nelms: So I'm kind of, we're being called back to when you shared that you went through this period where you were really into self health books and you know, leadership books. Excuse me. And what's so interesting about those books, I mean, I think they have a place, I think they can give us very reasonable tools to, to travel that behavior change journey.
Um, but they center us in our world.
Matt Tanner: Yes, yes.
Rachel Nelms: What we care about is so important. I mean, a lot of the messages, what you care about is important and kind of under believing and having the confidence in what? In what And your perspective. Um. Something that stories give us is decentering ourselves and living in other people's worlds, other people's realities, which is why they build empathy.
Because we are not, these characters, even if we identify them with them, they have a different experience. And I'm hearing even now, you're, you are taking that orientation into your leadership and your kind of reckoning with yourself. They are the center of their own world. I am not the center of their world.
This metric is not the center of their world. That's not, that's how humans are and that's okay. It's not something to push against or to change or to to fault. It's something to understand. Then maybe it can free you up and how you're spending your time.
Matt Tanner: This, this is more like founder, CEO, but really any leader could say, uh, I've, I've had leaders say to me like, I just wish, uh, every, I, I need the front lines caring as much as I do and, and acting like an owner. I'm like, well, uh, do they have as much equity as you? Like, why would, like, do, do they have a reason to. as much as you and, and act like you do. No. Um, now, you know, you don't want like total apathy, out there, but it's just an unreasonable thing to ask people to care about this thing as much as you. Um, it, it just drives me mad when, when can't understand that.
Rachel Nelms: I also, I mean I, maybe this is a different conversation for another day. Um. But it's a bit of a devil's bargain, asking people to act like owners of what you own. Uh, because sometimes, um, they do and you don't like, don't know like how much it, what, how they react when something really matters to them.
Um, it can be hard. Um, lots of cooks in the kitchen.
Matt Tanner: Yeah. And we're just getting to that stage at our size where I am, uh, handing off a lot. Like a lot of the day to day is run by someone else and she's phenomenal. But I'll see sometimes decision that, that she makes and I'm like, oh, I wouldn't, that's not how I would've done that. But, um, I'm not doing it.
So, uh, that's hard for somebody who’s a control freak.
Rachel Nelms: Yeah. Thank you so much for, uh, going to some pretty deep places this early morning. Um,
Matt Tanner: had a lot of coffee. It was
Rachel Nelms: you get prepared. So I'd love to finish off this conversation with just kind of rapid fire questions. Uh, I call it the sprint. Um, and this is inspired by, oh gosh. Back when Lost in Translation came out, uh, this old show, inspi Inside the Actor studio.
I watched it religiously. I loved it. And he would always ask these questions. Yes, both the original and the Will Ferrell version.
Matt Tanner: Yeah, that's the version I think
Rachel Nelms: uh, but he would ask que these questions at the end, or a set of questions at the end of each interview. And now, uh, well. For the next week or so, Stephen Colbert does a similar thing and hit some of his interviews.
Um, so this is just a set of questions and you can keep the answers short, sweet. Um, no wrong answers. Um, and we'll go through 'em real quickly. so, first question, stolen directly from inside the actor studio, uh, what is your favorite word?
Matt Tanner: Uh, a word I'm, I'm gonna go with margin, but not you would think. Like profit net mar. I love this idea of like, margin in your life, space to bored or, um, have some freedom. So, mar margin's, I think we talk about a lot at same page, like we wanna create margin for others and ourselves. I love this idea of margin.
Rachel Nelms: Love that
Matt Tanner: Sounds fun to say.
Rachel Nelms: It is. And uh, I think quite literally, like I think about a page and how yeah.
Matt Tanner: Like marginalia and taking notes. Yeah.
Rachel Nelms: What is your least favorite word?
Matt Tanner: More of a sound. Uh, I guess that's the word. Ugh. When someone says, ugh. Like, that's, like, is that a word? UGHI hate. I I do not like that reaction.
Rachel Nelms: Hmm. Why?
Matt Tanner: Uh, it's just a negative and like, just pause. Like, it's such a re I mean, I'm sure I do it, but, um, I, I. Really do not like that kind of immediate negativity or just overreaction to a thing.
Rachel Nelms: What is the best thing about being you?
Matt Tanner: Oh gosh. Uh, right now it is that I have a lot of margin in my life. Um, but um, the best thing about being me, as trite as it is, like getting to watch two amazing children see the world through their eyes has been, is really fun. Um. But, um, and I get to be around a lot because of this just business and situation that we're in.
Rachel Nelms: What's the hardest thing about being you?
Matt Tanner: Can it also be being a, a parent? I don't know. Uh, yeah, I think well with that margin comes, uh. Questions of like, what do I do with it? Like, what's next for the business? Like, do I have some room to do different things And, uh, I'm not ready to, you know, retire just yet. Um, gotta figure out what I wanna do with some of that margin. also being a parent would be the other answer.
Rachel Nelms: I feel that what inspires you creatively, spiritually, emotionally? What inspires you?
Matt Tanner: Um, people that I've had it, I, I've hit the parents lottery, the country I was born in, lottery. I mean, you know, uh, just have had it pretty easy. I mean, you know, so I think I'm inspired by people that overcome much harder situations whenever I see, you know, a, a, a, a founder that, or, or it doesn't have to be a business, anything, anybody that's just thriving that came from difficult. Situ and I, I don't even have to get into specifics, I think, you know what I mean? But just like I've had it pretty easy. And so it's always inspiring when somebody has not
Rachel Nelms: What demotivates you?
Matt Tanner: Um, timeline or deadlines? Um, well, there. They're a trick. They work, but, um, it's, it's not, it. I don't do my best work. So, um, I think lack of freedom is demotivating to me.
Rachel Nelms: Hmm. Why do you do what you do professionally?
Matt Tanner: Uh, because I got laid off, uh, and pushed and shoved into it. Uh, that's why I started. Why, why do I keep doing it? Um, the, the flip side of that, like, I have a lot of freedom, good and bad to do this how I wanna do it. Uh, I, I don't know. I don't know why. That's always been a big thing for me. Freedom, autonomy, I guess most humans want those things, so that's probably not unique to me, but that's why I continue doing it.
As scary as it can be sometimes, and as unclear as it can be on where we're going. Um, I wouldn't trade the, freedom for anything
Rachel Nelms: I think the beginning of a journey, being a layoff, will we resonate with a lot of people these days?
Matt Tanner: Yeah, I mean, I think, uh, I get asked all the time like, why did you wanna start a business? And like, oh, you know, you're a founder. Like, you're so brave. I got shoved into this. So like,
Rachel Nelms: mm-hmm.
Matt Tanner: I think, um, I'm, I'm grateful I, this sounds made up, but I am grateful for getting laid off and
Rachel Nelms: Mm-hmm.
Matt Tanner: COVID was a terrible thing for the world, but, um, it, it shoved me into this direction, so I'm grateful for that.
Rachel Nelms: If you could do anything else, what would it be
Matt Tanner: Oh man, I would be a private, private eye.
Rachel Nelms: Really
Matt Tanner: Yeah. I think that would be really fun. I dunno if they still
Rachel Nelms: like? Like Humphrey Bogart style.
Matt Tanner: Uh, no, not quite that, nor I'd like to, you know, the idea of like being on a stakeout in like a car, uh, with a cup of coffee. That seems like pretty good. good work. Um, I mean, I just think that'd be fun.
Rachel Nelms: Yeah.
Matt Tanner: I was a newspaper reporter for a little while and that, that, that's, that those kind of rhyme a little bit.
Rachel Nelms: Mm-hmm.
Matt Tanner: I love to be a pi. I mean, they're just cool.
Rachel Nelms: Yeah.
Matt Tanner: It's, it's probably very boring work. Uh, but, um, I don't know. I like boredom. I think that'd be fun.
Rachel Nelms: That feels appropriate for a child that came up kind of through the eighties with, you know, your Magna Pi, your Remington Steel, MacGyver. These people who are.
Matt Tanner: Let me be clear. I don't think, uh, it could possibly be as cool as Tom Selleck. Uh, it'd be more of like, um, the long goodbye, uh, the, the Philip Marlowe guy. I, I, to be more of a quirky,
Rachel Nelms: Sure.
Matt Tanner: Gets it done. Guy. Yeah. Tom Selleck, that's a high no, but that was a great show.
Rachel Nelms: Um, what is the one thing you wish every leader knew? We covered it a little bit, but I wish every leader knew that no one is going and this is okay.
Matt Tanner: No one is going to care as much as you do. and I think that would help them, quite a bit if they, grasp that and knew that. And I almost think it's unhealthy. I've been in places where I cared more than the leader. I think that's kind of unhealthy.
Rachel Nelms: Yeah. What is one thing you wish every team member knew?
Matt Tanner: That the that the leader is probably trying their best. and I think give them a little, give them a little slack, will be my answer to that.
Rachel Nelms: So kind of just more grace all around.
Matt Tanner: Grace. Yeah. That's a better word. Yeah. Give a little more grace.
Rachel Nelms: Uh, this was a delightful conversation, Matt. Thank you so much for making the time.
Matt Tanner: It was fun.
Rachel Nelms: And I hope we can do it again.
Matt Tanner: Absolutely. Thank you so much.
Rachel Nelms: Thank you so much for being present for this conversation on Trees for the Forest. Our website is formations consulting.com. There you'll find links to my LinkedIn and my sub. Do you have comments or thoughts about this episode? How did it impact you? love for you to share at rachel@formationsconsulting.com. Until next time, be well.
