Erika Putinsky, strategist, storyteller, and change leader, believes great leadership starts with curiosity, compassion, and a willingness to really listen. She cultivates and embraces connection in every realm of her life.
In this episode, we talk about the types of connection that matter, the difference that showing up from connection makes, and how it is only with and through others that we can offer our best.
You can keep up with Erika on LinkedIn.
Transcript
Rachel Nelms: Welcome. My name is Rachel Nelms. For over 15 years, I've been working with executives and their teams across industries and continents. Over the years, the leaders I work with have found clarity and courage when they reconnected themselves with an idea, an experience deeper than their business goals and bigger than their professional position. Those ideas and experiences are what I'm here to explore in Trees for the Forest. I spend time and conversation with leaders learning about that unique experience and inspiration that shapes who they are as humans and in time informs how they show up as leaders. Thank you so much for joining us for this meaningful conversation. I am so excited to introduce our guest today. Um, I first met Erica through the employee resource groups we both supported, um, at Mailchimp. She was an executive sponsor and a fierce advocate for employees in her group, as well as employee resource groups across the organization.
Tirelessly using her position, her privilege, and her voice to support the ERGs and the communities they represent. One thing to know about Erica is that she brings an unflinching optimism about the world together with refreshing pragmatism that makes you know everything is okay and will be okay because okayness is in fact feasible.
She moves through her life by way of connections. Connections with her partner and daughter, connections with her friends and family, connections with her colleagues and customers. Erica is constantly pouring into and receiving the fruit of connection, and brings that into how she leads. She has an amazing career as a customer obsessed executive from tech to the not-for-profit world.
She's led customer success and marketing teams at WhatCounts, Intuit, and Emory University. Every step of the way, she expresses her ethos of advocacy and connection with her colleagues. And on behalf of the customers and team members she serves. Welcome, Erica.
Erika Putinsky: I'm so excited to be here, Rachel. Thank you. I, I, that's an amazing intro. Wow. Thanks.
Rachel Nelms: Oh, uh, every word of it is true. I'm so happy to have you here. Um, thank you for being here. So let's start somewhere near the beginning. What is a community that helped you understand yourself better?
Erika Putinsky: Um. It's funny, I think about this story a lot. Uh, when I was really little, I would spend most of the summers with my grandparents in a tiny town, um, in southeast Ohio. And my Mimi was very involved in community, so she belonged to the women's club. She, you know, belonged to the church and, uh, belonged to the community. And my grandfather had a bakery in town, or it was a village. It was that small. It was called a village. And so they were always so engaged with their neighbors and their friends and like that, which was amazing. But there's this one moment that just like, I don't know, I feel like it. Uh, definitely helped to set a course for me whenever we were, we went up to this church that they went to, and it was a tiny wooden church on the top of a mountain, and it, there might be like 20 people that went there. It didn't even have indoor plumbing when I was really little. And we would go up there and it was just about like having good meals and having fun and things like that. So we went, it was my Mimi and a bunch of her pals and we were cleaning the church and I was maybe, geez, maybe five or six. And it was so much fun to just hang out with these people that wanted to do something nice and they wanted to get something done together and laugh and it didn't matter.
You know, I'm tiny and I'm trying to push a vacuum cleaner. Uh, and that was super fun then. But you know, like it didn't matter that you totally knew what you were doing. It mattered that you were there and that you were smiling and having fun. And so that just sort of, kind of set the course for me on how to show up and how to, um, you know, make sure that it's, uh, doing good stuff and having a good time while doing it.
Rachel Nelms: That is such a beautiful story and something that comes to mind as you're sharing that is, um, how, you know, when we, when we talk about relationships and how we can be mindful in relationships, we talk about this idea of intent and impact. And, um, and how, you know, how we kind of overfocus on intent
Erika Putinsky: Hmm.
Rachel Nelms: and regardless of impact.
But what comes to mind as you're sharing that story for me is that when you're in intimate community with others, intent really does matter. Um, if you're there and you're, you're there to be a part and to contribute, even if you can only contribute a little bit, or even if your contribution's a little wonky, that's good enough, even if your impact doesn't match your intent.
Um, and so how that connection can kind of pave over the bumps of our flaws and our mistakes,
Erika Putinsky: Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Nelms: a powerful lesson at five.
As someone who is nearly times that and still has not learned that lesson.
Erika Putinsky: I mean, it, it's for me, it's just something to kind of come back to and just the easy parts. You know, it's one of the things that people say to me a lot is I, I just smile or I say hi or those kinds of things. Like for me, community is that you hold a door for somebody, you acknowledge them when you walk in the room.
That's just like a really. Great entry point to be able to start a connection and, and it doesn't have to be deep or profound. Um, maybe it is, maybe that person. Nobody said hi to them, you know, all day long when people were walking to them or whatever it is. I think at the end of the day, you know, folks desire that connection, especially with how our cultures and our society nowadays are moving so quickly and folks are obsessed with speed. And so, just motivated consistently around and things like that. Those, those small moments are
Rachel Nelms: You've started to kind of bring shape and words to what connection, the definition of connection for you, what connection means to you. Um, carry that on, kind of put a point on it. What does connection mean to you?
Erika Putinsky: I mean, I, I think in its simplest form for me, connection is, um, creating those moments where, uh, you can just really settle into whatever it is, and so. Like, I think if it's doing a task or something, it's whenever you experience that state of flow, like, that's the connection. Whether you're connecting with the, the you're doing in your garden or the running that you're doing on the road, or the conversation that you're having with, you know, somebody that you very first meet, but for some reason it clicks. And it flows. So, like for me, that's, that's that true awesome community. And I think from my experience, um, are those moments when it, it can happen in just the smile or whatever it is. It doesn't have to be prolonged or deep. It can be just, just a hit like that.
Rachel Nelms: What does that feel like for you when you're in that flow?
Erika Putinsky: I mean, that's, that's the thing, like that's for me when, um. When I can find inspiration or I can find answers, or, um, I feel like I'm a part of something bigger than myself, which, um, you know, it is really amazing.
Rachel Nelms: The idea of flow, I mean obviously rivers come to mind, right? 'Cause they flow and leaning into that of the concept of flow, which allows you to unblock things you said, kind of find answers and see or experience how you're a part of a bigger picture, um, which requires intention but not effort. It sounds like.
Erika Putinsky: I think so, and I think, you know, to be able to let it happen and, you know, it's, I am, that I don't, I don't get there all the time. There's definitely moments where, um, you know, like, I can be, you know, working on a project or trying to think through something with a team you know, like I can get caught up in the struggle in the minutiae or really trying to push hard for a particular outcome.
And that you mentioned this kind of at the beginning, that sort of outcome focus and that kind of stuff, and. For me when I'm doing that. Things can get done and you can get to that outcome, but I do think that it misses a little bit of that flow whenever you're kind of struggling against it. And that's, that's like. Boy, whenever I get to that point, whenever I, I remember all the time to not really, uh, you know, push against things that are coming in and recognize them and value them for what they are. And maybe, you know, this hiccup or this challenge that's happening is a part of the flow, you know?
Rachel Nelms: Hmm. I'll confess that when I was preparing for our conversation, I was thinking about connection as something that you do, not you, but people do. You know, you connect with each other, you build connections. But what you were just describing, you were, you kind of set up this tension between force. And presence and maybe connection for you, as you're kind of modeling it for us, is that you be, not to make it too abstract and, you know, woo woo,
the more you force, the less connected you are, the more you're, you know, you're in contention with or you're in a situation.
Yeah. I'm curious, how does that, does that bring anything up for you as I'm reflecting
Erika Putinsky: I think it does for sure. You know, it's, I think an interesting example, I've got a, a friend who I consider a very dear friend and, he doesn't speak English. He, he's Italian. I don't speak Italian. I mean, I can order a drink and that's about it. But you know, like we can hang out and smile and laugh and have the best time and you know, whether it's, I don't know, helping him in his garden or just sitting down with him and his family and my family and having a meal. It's so incredible. And, and I'll ask, you know, other people at the table, Hey, well, you know, what's Pinot said? Or, you know, that kind of thing. But I never grab my phone and I'm never trying to force it with, you know, a translate app or something like that. And for me, part of it is, well, number one, I need to learn Italian.
There's that. But number two, to, to be able to kind of lean into that vulnerability of a connection like that. It's, it's got its own kind of unique and special flow, which is pretty incredible.
Rachel Nelms: Maybe take us on a journey about how you got from that, you know, 6-year-old, 5-year-old at the church with a vacuum cleaner that's probably twice her size. Um, to now, how did you cultivate this orientation towards connection?
Erika Putinsky: Um, I started my career in nonprofits and, um, really in and connecting in communities and very focused on giving back. Um, one of the things that's been, uh, just sort of a, a red thread through that I've done from a professional perspective is that it is about helping to create connections.
That it is about bringing together different groups of people. To, you know, on projects that are curious and smart and they wanna have fun. And then hopefully the outcome will be helping people and helping ourselves do more and be more than we ever thought possible. And that. That joined connection is really incredible.
So started a nonprofit, then kind of moved through and um, I was fortunate to be able to help out with the, um, disaster relief after Hurricane Katrina. Then, um, took that knowledge into the for-profit world and did some consulting and then got into marketing technology and you know, again, working tightly with customers, working closely with teams, really kind of thinking about how do we show up. As contributors, but also how do we show up as leaders to be able to be supportive and help, help kind of bring voice and opportunity out in different people and then solve problems in unique ways.
Rachel Nelms: So many of those moments that you described, especially early in your career in nonprofit spaces and Katrina, those are really hard moments and I, would imagine, I would feel I would have a really hard time being present not wanting to force a solution in those moments.
And feeling a sense of impatience around the, uh, kind of the slowness, the
Erika Putinsky: Hmm.
Rachel Nelms: inefficiency of working with others. Uh, so how did you, uh, you may not have felt that. How, what was that like for you? Did it feel to be present and collaborate and connect in those moments? Did it feel like something you had to push, had to kind of with intention?
Or what did that look like for you?
Erika Putinsky: Um, I mean, it waxes and wanes like for sure. As super human, not super human, like really human. And so, you know, there's uh, there's moments when I totally get impatient and I'm like, oh my gosh, come on, let's kind of figure it out and get to a solution, um, quickly. Or I, you know, I know what we need to do.
Let's go do that. Um, and when I've been impatient and really kind of. Pushed in that way, the outcomes are never as good. You know, I think, um, one of the things that has always, uh, just really driven me is, um, just that value and making sure that, that you're listening to the people around you and. You know, because you know Rachel's the boss doesn't mean Rachel has all the answers. I think that's really important and, you know, the, the other people on the team probably have more of the answers. So I think to, to have that level of patience. And whenever I've done that, when the really great things happen. Um. And I think to be able to make sure we remember that we are human and give ourselves that grace to, um. Know when we're, you know, when we're too much one side or the other, you know, like it, it's also not about slowing down to the point of inactivity. Um, so, and kind of analysis paralysis. So there is a time and a place to say, okay, cool, you know, we've talked it out. Let's go ahead and, uh, take a move on whatever it might be.
Rachel Nelms: So kind of there, it's still even connection and that flow, it is itself a fluid where you're trying, you have to be responsive. You can't just, you know, stay in that place forever.
Erika Putinsky: Totally. Yeah, I think so. I mean, and I think also to be able to understand it's time to pivot, um, I think that's really important. Uh, and to not really kind of. Fall in love with your solutions. I think that that's, you know, can definitely be a challenge. Um, and then we all get kind of wound around that and get weird.
And then again, you turn into a spot where you're just kind of pushing for speed or completion or something like that. Um, and then at that point you're kind of ticking the box, you know?
Rachel Nelms: Connection sounds like for you. This back to kind of my intro, a very practical way to show up that leads to both better results and fulfillment, which is kind of the best of both worlds, regardless of what, whether it's a professional space or a personal space.
Erika Putinsky: Yeah. Yeah.
Rachel Nelms: So on this idea of connections, I'm curious about what your core connections are. So this, what I mean by that is kind of connections in your life that are non-negotiable, that must be healthy and must be strong in order for you to be at your best.
Erika Putinsky: Um, my family is just core to everything. I'm so grateful that, um, you know, my wife is incredibly supportive and, you know, is able to. Uh, you know, help me recenter and refocus if I do get too much in my head or, uh, stressed out or something like that. And also, um, you know, has an incredible ability to. Help, help me and, you know, kind of think outside of the box, which is really cool. Uh, uh, my daughter is incredible and so creative and so, uh, just energizing. And fiercely, like in the world and the universe. And to see that like excitement keep me fired up. Um, which is really cool. And then, um, I have an incredible friend group. It's, you know, as much as connections and connectivity is so important to me. Um, broadly I have a pretty small friend group and, um, you know, it's, uh, with those folks. I, I have very deep connections, which has always kind of been the way I've approached things, um, from a, like a friend perspective. Like those are the ones that, you know, we have real conversations with and, um, that I, that I truly let inside.
Rachel Nelms: Would you say that pursuing and maintaining depth is one way you tend to those connections?
Erika Putinsky: I think so. Yeah. And it's, um, and that's not to discount the hellos or the smiles or the, you know, kind of those other spots where I have connections. Like for me, connections kind of up and down. And to be able to have just those deep connections like those for me are those moments of solace where it can be, um. You know, the, like sit on the porch and just listen to the birds and you know, watch the wind blow in the trees and it's perfect and it's normal and it's silent. Like, or I'll tell you my deepest, darkest secrets and fears and just cry and you'll tell me it'll be okay. So that's great too.
Rachel Nelms: Yeah. Yeah, you've started to share with us how connection shows up and how you lead and how you think about being a leader in an organization and with a team. And um, and one thing you mentioned earlier was kind of the pace of these different systems of technology, of business, of, I mean, even in the nonprofit world, which.
This intensity and urgency on one side where you've been incredibly successful and made such an impact seems to be a tension with the orientation that you've cultivated around connection. So I'm curious, how do you navigate that tension? How do you bring connection, orientation, authentically into your leadership given, you know, urgency, intensity.
Now, you know, especially, well, we can come back to that, but go ahead.
Erika Putinsky: You know, I definitely have done it better at times than others. One of the things that is, that's a trap that I can get into is speed and the pressure and urgency. And I don't think that's uncommon for a lot of folks in general these days and for leaders. That, timelines are always so truncated.
I think that it sort of can take over. For me it's important. And one of the things that I try to remind myself is to slow down to speed up. And so in those moments of slowing down that it is about listening, it is about watching. And it is about taking that moment to reflect on the team and reflect on the processes and the organization. And then go from there. And, you know, there's moments where, you know, that pause is a luxury. And it's really critical and I know when I haven't done it, then that's, you know, pushed to points where, I'll start to see signs of burnout. I'll start to see signs of that, just sort of disconnection with myself. So then you sort of, time to make the donuts, and you just keep running to get it done rather than have fun or connect with people, or connect with the that you're doing.
Rachel Nelms: Would it be fair to add your self as a core connection, in addition to your wife, your partner, and your friends that you have to tend to?
Erika Putinsky: No, Rachel, yes, yes, yes, you're right. That's a fatal flaw of mine. Oftentimes, I'll forget about that part with myself, but I'm working on it, so.
Rachel Nelms: I, I mean, for better or worse, it seems like the benefit of one way, uh, our minds and bodies work is it doesn't let us forget it for terribly long as a, a built in mechanism. You mentioned burnout.
Erika Putinsky: Totally. Yeah. One way or another it shows up for sure.
Rachel Nelms: Yeah. Well, one, one other kinda question on the leadership in business in enterprise and organizations, uh, that came up for me as you were talking through just how this orientation towards being present and being in flow and not forcing, um, you know, depth and vulnerability, can be at odds with some of the markers of our system.
It feels like that is intensified right now with AI. Uh, and connection feels especially at risk, um, both in, you know, yes, we, we've seen some of the more tragic things that come whenever AI replaces to person, human to human connection,
Erika Putinsky: Yeah.
Rachel Nelms: um, as well as happening and how organizations think about how work gets done.
So as someone who, who seems particularly driven by this, you know, what are, what reflections do you have on this moment?
Erika Putinsky: Um, it's pretty wild for sure.
Rachel Nelms: I'm here
Erika Putinsky: It's, I mean, you know, like, whatever, it's, um. Like early on, you know, like in college, not a tech adopter, I was like, I will never be committed to a computer. I will not do these things. I'm just going to type my papers on it and that's it. You know, obviously that changed. Uh, and you know, it's that digitization of all of us happened, you know, sort of. Over time, um, the increased prevalence of AI and just all of the digital everywhere in our lives. Um. What I'm trying to do is to make sure that. I'm very sort of purposeful around when and where I use it. And so it's, things. I enjoy writing letters with a pen and a stamp, like remembering that, those things like that or reading a paper book. And that value, I think that helps me generally in my life, sort of take a moment from the screens, from a work perspective. Including AI, to be able to understand how to leverage it as a tool and not a total dependency. So if like a final editor or something that's gonna help. Speed something along for sure. And it's never gonna get the connection and it's never going to get the human of how it needs to show up, to, really land and to really have that impact. So for me it is about making sure to know when to just stop it. Like Slack messages or something like that. Like I have a personal rule. If it goes more than five times, you gotta pick up the phone. Clearly you're just typing past one another and it's not working. Because I think as humans we desire connection and we want that. And if we stop it. I think that we just sort of get caught in a cycle. And then we get stuck, and I think that'll be the worst thing for us as a culture and as a humanity. Whenever we forget that value of just sitting down and talking or drawing or whatever it is, and understanding that it doesn't have to be perfect. I think maybe that's part of it too. One of the things that I'm, really thinking a lot about right now is just sort of the. Like the beauty and the gaps. And the mistakes. And I think whenever you're leveraging AI and technology, there'll be hallucinations and that kind of stuff, but it's pretty darn good. And I think sometimes, like if I wanna sketch and draw and it's not awesome, but I did it and, and it's fun to just step, step behind and say, I did that with a pen, it was an hour. Good job, Erica. So.
Rachel Nelms: One thing, I use AI to help my final edit that you talked about when I'm writing and when I first started using it, I would put my, my writing and it would spit out and it sounded nothing like me. It sounded like AI, in all the, all the worst ways. And it was, but it was very efficient. And I'm not an efficient writer.
I kind of. Meander a bit when I write, and so I started telling AI I want my writing to be inefficient. Do not. Do not take my five paragraphs and make it two.
Erika Putinsky: Yeah.
Rachel Nelms: there is opportunity to
Erika Putinsky: Totally.
Rachel Nelms: choices and so you can make recommendations, but um, but kind of speaking to the value of things being imperfect, things being a little off.
I feel like that's where we can still be as humans, can still be found in this mix. Um. And it feels very comforting in, uh, legitimately meaningful ways. Not just, you know, not just, um, like junk food. It feels comforting in ways that matter.
Erika Putinsky: Right. And I think, you know, in business and in life, I think that folks are getting used to moving very quickly, striving for perfection and. It's really nothing's perfect. And so if we're pushing ourselves as humans to try and achieve that, it's not gonna happen. You know? So. Uh, I think we, we can all get kind of delusional and mixed up around that. Uh, if, if we're that heavily leaning into, um, leaning into AI, you know, like the other day I sent, uh, an email to somebody from work and there was a, like a typo in it. And you know, I was like, oh man, I should have put that through Copilot and there's a typo, and that was an important person. But then, you know, like I took a moment and I was like, you know what?
Like they know I wrote that. Like, and that was me. I, I took a moment and I didn't just, you know, have the machine respond. Um, so I, I'm hopeful that as a, as a community and as a culture we'll remember that, you know, like the, it's okay to have mistakes or it's okay for something to be a little wonky. Um, because there's beauty in that, you know, there's humanity in it as well.
Rachel Nelms: Wonderful. Uh, so before we launch into the sprint, which is kind of my series of questions to bring us home, uh, I have one more kind of, that doesn't have to be a huge but slightly bigger question, which is, what is one lesson you're learning right now and who or what are your teachers?
Erika Putinsky: Take a second to think about this one because I'm learning a lot, truth be told. Um, one lesson that I'm learning right now. You know, one of the, one of the things that I think I am relearning is that, um. That value and that connection to myself, you know, it's, um. It's something and you know, we touched on it earlier, it's something that I can forget, to go on walks or take the time to reflect or take the time to, uh, be mindful about what a meeting or things like that. And I'm really relearning that and that's helping me. I think show up better for my family and for my friends, and I think in work as well, and it's really helping me to. Also slow down and watch and listen more. Listen to the folks on my team and really listen to, um, their observations as they're moving through problems and solving and. I'll tell you what, like I'm learning so much from my team right now and just watching them, a, a person on my team that, uh, you know, is on the creative team and, and we had some, uh, some creative that came through and it was good and it was on brand and it made sense.
And I was like, okay, cool. This is it. And she pushed on it and she was like. It's not interesting enough, like let's do something cooler, let's change it up and. And I love that. You know, like, and, and it's a, it's a great opportunity for me to relearn, slow down, do cool stuff with super smart people, and step away and be able to say, wow, man, that's fun.
And we made something beautiful and, you know, and, you know, I told her, I don't know at this point, probably four or five times. Like, oh my gosh, great job pushing back. Great job doing that. And she's like, ah, it's my job. Forget about it. But, but you know, like it's this moment like as a leader where I'm like, holy moly, good job.
Like you're, you're doing something that, uh. You know that I think we all easily forget sometimes whenever we are trying to move quickly, so.
Rachel Nelms: I love that. Okay. Are you ready to dive into some rapid fire questions?
Erika Putinsky: Oh my gosh. I'm ready. Let's go. I'm gonna sit on the edge of my seat, right.
Rachel Nelms: Okay. Okay, so start off easy. What is your favorite word?
Erika Putinsky: Love
Rachel Nelms: What is your least favorite word?
Erika Putinsky: Moist. Ugh. It's just gross. It just sounds gross.
Rachel Nelms: Universally hated and rightly so.
What is the best thing about being you?
Erika Putinsky: Um, I think the, uh, just my family and the my friends that I have around me, like, I'm really, really fortunate. It's, yeah, the best thing.
Rachel Nelms: What is the hardest thing about being you?
Erika Putinsky: Um, I can definitely get in my head and, um. It's hard for me to get out you know, just from a stress perspective or, uh, just kind of ruminating on things, but I'm working on it.
Rachel Nelms: Sounds like that's part of that lesson you're learning that you
Erika Putinsky: Right. I'm trying.
Rachel Nelms: What inspires you?
Erika Putinsky: Oh geez. I find so much inspiration in, uh, just sitting and watching and or going on a walk and looking at nature and listening to the birds and seeing the sunrise. And it is a weird and wonderful and beautiful world that we all live in and. It's, uh, just taking that time to truly see it and then just think about all the systems and the interactions.
Wow. Yeah. Well, I could talk forever about that.
Rachel Nelms: Saying, um, so what demotivates you?
Erika Putinsky: Clutter and waste.
Rachel Nelms: Oh yeah. Yeah. One thing that's amazing about nature is there's, uh, none of that. Even
Erika Putinsky: It's true.
Rachel Nelms: it's
Erika Putinsky: It's true. It does a thing and it's purposeful, but it doesn't have to be fast and, and we're in that, you know, we're still discovering, you know, there's so much that we don't know that it's doing, so,
Rachel Nelms: Why do you do what you do professionally?
Erika Putinsky: Um, I think I touched on that earlier on, that it is about really. Building something meaningful with smart people that, um, are curious and humble and, you know, just wanna end up with something better than we ever thought we could do, and that, that we could be better than we ever thought possible.
That that's, you know, why I show up to be able to be a part of that community and a part of a team of folks.
Rachel Nelms: So if you could do anything else, what would it be?
Erika Putinsky: Oh my gosh. Uh, I would usually say a farmer because that's magical. Uh, I do have a secret dream that I've shared with you before, Rachel, about having like this adult sort of sabbatical summer camp where folks could just be curious and look at things and find inspiration. So maybe I'll win the lottery and do that too.
Rachel Nelms: Porque no los dos> Why not be a farmer at your adult summer camp?
Erika Putinsky: Oh my gosh. Great.
Rachel Nelms: That. What is one thing you wish every leader knew?
Erika Putinsky: Hmm. I wish every leader knew that they don't have to have all the answers.
Rachel Nelms: And finally, what is one thing you wish every team member knew?
Erika Putinsky: Uh, I wish that every team member knew that. They have the ability to have the answers. I think a lot of times, you know, folks on teams, and I'm at fault of this sometimes too, is it's, you know, I'll look to my leader for the answers when I know the answer. You know, so just that like level of confidence to have the decision and say like, this is it, you know? That's, I think that's when it's really, really cool whenever you can see. Team members just really kind of grabbing the ball and coming with that solution.
Rachel Nelms: Thank you so much for connecting with us today. It was a
Erika Putinsky: Oh my gosh, it was an honor.
Rachel Nelms: Thank you so much for being present for this conversation on Trees for the Forest. Our website is formationsconsulting.com. There you'll find links to my LinkedIn and my Substack. Do you have comments or thoughts about this episode? How did it impact you? I'd love for you to share at rachel@formationsconsulting.com. Until next time, be well.
